So we are. Gonna go ahead and move over to that presentation.
Thank you very much
Hi! Everyone
Okay. I'm gonna share my screen real quick
Yeah.
Oh, just 1 s I'm just gonna introduce you all, and then I will pass it over to you.
So. Hey, everyone. My name is Amy Kasalani, with the Hcd.
Center of excellence, and I'm excited to introduce our panel discussion today.
First I'd like to note that our drawing at the end of the session is for a custom avatar.
Remember you must be present to win if you did not register for the conference on event.
Right, please complete the non-registered attendee form with the link in chat, and don't forget to see the link in chat to collaborate with fellow attendees on the mural board during the sessions today.
I'd like to introduce our panel moderator, Matthias Rex Siegel.
Mathias is a design technologist and educator based in Minnesota, at the digital service at Cms.
Mathiasis background at the intersection of design, technology, and education has influenced projects across the treasury Department Bureau of the Fiscal Service Federal Reserves and Cms.
Thank you so much, Amy. I'm gonna share my screen real quick
And our conversation today is all about the little nudges like we often talk about like the big swap, like su sweeping initiatives that, like change and get like big press releases, but each and every one of you every day is doing the little thing so like keep all of it running and those those little
Nudges are the things that are really really important to like really consider on a day to day basis, and really make sure that we're we're being mindful with all of those of those little nudges because it really makes a difference and today, being November Eighth the Tuesday, I hope
All, of you can can do your part and having a little little nudge in our our civic space of going out to vote today, so make sure that you all take the time and space to go out to vote and and I I everyone would really appreciate it but let's let's talk about who we're talking
With today. So first we have Iowa Lee, who is going is a designer on on our team, and I would do her disservice to like just like speak for her.
So I'm gonna let her introduce herself
Thanks so much, Matthias. Good morning, good afternoon, everybody depending on where you're at my name is Aya Ali.
I'm a ux designer at the digital service at Cms.
Prior to I'll I'll likely be kind of calling on some of my experience at the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services, Office of Diversion and Reentry, where I helped really stand up a reentry intensive case management.
Services team and using through using a case manager database that was weaved into all of the county hospitals, or, you know, ramping into sort of like incorporating that case management database into health care professionals day to day and so yeah, I'll be
I'll be talking a little bit about that. My background is mostly in social work in urban planning, and then I transitioned over to Ux.
So that will also kind of come out during the the talk, and I'll pass it over to Melissa
Thank you. Iat. Hello, everybody. It's nice to be here with you.
My name is Melissa Egleston.
I am coming to you. Live from Durham, North Carolina, where I live, and I am doing right now.
40, sack. I'm a user experience researcher. I've been doing user experience work.
So 2,009 and have a strong interest in the behavioral health space.
The mental health. Space. Health in general is important to me, and I've gotten to work on some cool projects in the last few years related to being more trauma-informed and how we approach both the research. Process.
As well as the end result in the design. So that's a real interest for me.
So it's great to be working on projects here at Dsac, and excited to share some of it with you today.
Thank you.
And my name is Matthias Rexigo, my pronouncer, he!
Him I like, Amy said. I'm from Minnesota, and right before my time here at digital surface of Cms.
I was an educator out of a vocational boot camp, trying to get people who wanted to do a career switch into design and technology and and the little things that they would bring to the space every single day was was really remarkable and really revitalizing to like be back at the space right now
And unfortunately, Amy Barons. She was, is unable to to attend today, but she is a content strategist on the digital service team.
Who's also kind of collaborating on on some of these behavioral health spaces that Melissa Melissa is alluding to.
So let's let's talk about what a little nudge is I kind of.
I said a little bit about it before, but little little nudges are.
Are those small things that might be a part of a process or might be just kind of like a reframing of who we're including in to participate.
It could be ensuring that, like the usability of of of minor things on the interface, like buttons versus text links or are we considering accessibility, and what type of accessibility are we considering like people with who rely on screen readers people who might have various cognitive
Abilities, like ensuring that. We one talk about it, but also like actually act on it.
So these little nudges combined to actually have bigger public health ripples and they all kind of stack stack onto each other and so I'm gonna pass it off to to Melissa to start off with but tell me a little bit more about what nudge did you make to make things
A little bit more usable on on some of your recent projects.
Sure, so as a user experience researcher, you know my goal is always to be putting whatever we're making in front of people.
So that is like a lot of what I do, you know.
Put the website. In front of people get their reaction and trust that if we put put items in front of people who are in our desired audiences, they're gonna lead us the right direction.
Right, so not just depending on exponentials, although certainly we want expertise.
We want to get information we always want to be making sure.
We're actually testing things and making sure we're meeting the needs for those people who are serving right.
And so one of the nudges we made recently, when we were working on a a site for people seeking substance use treatment is, we?
We were running some usability test, and we decided let's just include a few people who do use screen readers.
And that was interesting experience. For sure it was probably the third time I've gotten to do that in my career, and it made a huge difference because you know, when we were running this website.
Through accessibility checkers. It was coming in in like the nineties.
It was coming up as very high, because there were many, many things that were done correctly about this.
Website that was making it accessible in terms of its colors and things like that.
But unfortunately kind of the main purpose for the website, which is, you know, getting some help for substance.
Use. That part was breaking down for people. Once we actually put real people through the process who were using screen readers not just kind of like trying to test ourselves so as we put some people, through this and we thought oh, my goodness.
You know this is a this is a real problem. Like this is a barrier.
It's not operable like it. It doesn't work for them.
We're immediately been able to go back to the owners website, and say, Hey, this needs to be fixed, and they immediately were like, Thank you for thank you for showing us this and we show them the video recordings.
They could watch themselves and get like firsthand view of kind of the struggles people were going through.
And so it was like making that extra effort to enjoy somebody with just with a disability related to their eyes in our process.
That ended up. You know it's making a real difference in the in that.
Now that website will be coded correctly. So the people who come to it who are, you know already in in tough times, you know, seeking help for substance use, who you know have low vision, can actually like get to a provider that before you know they would have run into a big barrier so that's
Like something is just thinking a lot about who we're including in our research, and we do that at a desk in various ways, right trying to have diversity in terms of geographic location.
Gender and race, and all the different things like you mentioned.
Cognitive disabilities. Mathias. There's invisible disabilities, and just trying to get the widest variety of people as possible, since we're creating things for the general public so that was kind of the first thing that came to mind
Thank you. Yeah. Like some some of the little nudges that have like like happened like in the development space is like component driven development and like we apply.
All of our accessibility focus to individual components, but much like if a room, each individual, room and a house is accessible.
But if the doorways aren't accessible that connect all those components like it really breaks down for for people who really need it.
So thank you for sharing that I at you. Could you tell me a little bit more about a nudge that you've done to make things more usable
Yeah, I'll I'll kind of call on 2 experiences.
So one is a campaign around La free the vote. So this was a legislation pass that allowed folks who are on probation and parole to actually be eligible to vote in the State, of California.
Which was big big legislation, and lots of folks didn't know about it.
And so what we did is working with the county registrar's office.
We stood up a website that folks could navigate to and actually understand.
You know their voting rights. And so you know, I I think oftentimes, especially in in sort of like urban planning and social workspaces.
Sometimes there's a lag between policy being implemented.
And then what the people know, and so that was that, was, you know, sort of a sort of a nudge.
There were limitations in that. Of course, too, this was before the pandemic, and we were continuing.
How many people had it Internet access could navigate to the site.
We ended up creating lots of print material to sort of supplement and spread it across the city and share it with our community based organizations.
Another example in in kind of like nudges, to make things more usable, in a lot of homeless services or social services, databases.
There. There can be lots of jargon, you know.
It's kind of hard to like. Understand. Wait, this goes.
Here and then where? How does it line up? And and so what we did the the case manage the intensive case management database that we implemented back in 2,017 it's called champ and it essentially you know it it took into consideration.
Literacy rates it took into consideration cognitive abilities, and we did incorporate lots of just sort of like more.
We did a lot of the user testing to understand where people were sort of sort of, you know.
Yeah, having some pain points, and we demystified a lot of what the medical profession kind of. Has.
And these sometimes in these databases, especially in California.
There's a new policy called Cal AIM, and it's the use of medicaid funds into homeless services.
And so understanding, that legislation, what you can build to what you can't build to as a community health worker was super important as well, and so we decoded a lot of those referral codes and shared it with folks so that way they're able to get folks into the services and
And the places that they need to be
Thank you for sharing sharing both of those stories and like I'm gonna I'm gonna Channel.
Amy Barons a little bit because she's an advocate for like writing and playing language, and I'm sure she would bounce off of this Wilson and I did some on the ground research in fargo and a piece of feedback that we did get was the way that the interfaces
were written plain language, deep, deep jargon things was not only like more understandable, but it was also appreciated.
We we got multiple comments like on prompted of like this wasn't written like to dumb it down.
It was like it seems like it was written for me, which is like it's it's good to know, like if we think of like the the most recent customer experience executive order and like how how we can increase trust in public like that's it like working hand in hand with the community some like making sure that
We're not. We're we're we're putting things in front that they also appreciate that are just usable.
And I out. I'm gonna pass it back to you.
It was just like. Tell us a little bit more about the outcomes that you saw
Yeah, you know, I always like to say in, and this this has been been in sort of audio social service spaces the people who are closest to the problem are our closest to the solution.
And so when we're thinking about you know, when we're thinking about really complex issues like homelessness, which is sort of a symptom of lots of other systems, sort of you know people slipping through the cracks you know we see we see that when we're talking to people about
What they actually need, and and also understanding like the deep distrust that people might have, you know, with institutions and helping them understand, like what the system is, what it?
How it could help them is, is really really incredible, and you know, you see, people's lives change through it.
People, getting getting into housing people, getting into S. Ud.
Treatment, just by sort of making it just simple, you know, like taking away all of the conditions of if you do this, then you go here and like putting that on the back end so that way.
Program staff are dealing with like the intricacies and the ins and outs, and not putting it on.
Folks who are in need of services. So the outcomes that we've seen in in these like small nudges, whether they be tagg or or even in print, design, just in like yeah, public health information out to the people is better health outcomes we see more Pcp: visits.
Are getting into housing and staying in housing, you know, are working on hoarding problems, or whatever the case may be.
And and that's that's you know what human-centered design truly is.
Before I pass it over to Melissa. Could you tell us a little bit more like, in addition to like how it helped the the public like?
How did it help? How did those little nudges, and usually like help the people that you're working with, too, to like help the public
And that was with Iots. Sorry
Helping the public so how could you re restate that
Yeah. Sorry so like in addition to just like helping the public.
How did it help your your colleagues that you're working with as well like, so that they could better help the public as well
Yeah, I think you know the team that I was working with mostly we're program managers.
And it helped. It helped us better understand where people were going.
When it helped us understand how we could support people if folks were.
We're sort of, you know, having a hard time whether it be mental health or or substance.
Use, you know, figuring out working with our community based organizations to figure out how there can be more resources allocated to that person, because we we know that people you know especially from a public health lens if you don't have your your basic needs met like the Moslemos loves
Like hierarchy of needs. Then you're gonna you're gonna try to get those in what way you possibly can, and that's just a part of the human condition and you know and so we we saw lots of people.
Going into hospital systems like the county er systems to get to just get a hot sandwich, or like a place to to sleep for the night, and so these nudges allowed us to really like intercept before it got too too bad and trauma starts to set in right cause like if you're out
On the streets for too long. You're experiencing all all different kinds of things.
And so from from a public institution, and, like my peers at the Department of Health Services, it was understanding where people were were struggling, and helping them.
In those moments
Thank you. I don't. I'll pass it over to Melissa, which I don't know if she's gonna talk about, trauma informed design.
But I wanted to like put a PIN in that that language right there that I used to like to potentially give Melissa something to
Yeah. Thanks. I I want to touch, based on the outcomes that kind of came out of making sure that we have somebody with with you know vision challenges in our usability testing and so out of that came okay, this needs to be fixed evidently nobody's actually done this and even though this website has existed
For 3 years like nobody's actually like, ran somebody through it who is using a screen.
Reader, and that's just something we need to change like that's unacceptable right for our website.
To be out to the public for 3 years, and and not have this like very basic flaw address that was like just like a barrier at the front door.
I thought your analogy was really good enough bias of of you know you can have all the accessible parts, but if like, there's something in the cohesive part that's like bring keeping it all together, isn't working or the front door is not working it's not gonna be useful to
People and it really is useful. And it's just really, you know.
So now we have this outcome of you know colleagues, partners recognizing.
Oh, it actually is important that we we actually run the this with a real person, not just like through accessibility checkers which absolutely have value.
But don't go they don't necessarily tell us it's gonna perform in the wild right?
So it showed our colleagues that it's you know the website's being transformed now, and changes are being made so that it will be accessible to folks using screen readers or screen magnifiers and that sort of thing so that's like big improvements for the public and just
awareness that wow! It just takes, you know, grabbing a few extra people to really make a difference to understand how something's used and my vision in our research desk is that we're not you know separating out people who have special needs and doing separate studies like let's do study just with people
With screen readers, let's just say we just want in any study we run, and any kind of research we're doing.
Let's make sure that we've got some different folks with different types of abilities in there each time.
And so the more we can do that. I feel like the better we're gonna get something that works for everybody, and that's included, and that takes extra effort with recruiting.
You know Matthias referred to us. Being in Fargo.
We were there a few weeks ago, and we went to a mental health fair, and that was a really great way for us to do research with people with Syria.
Mental illness, and also who a couple of them expressed.
You know they haven't had challenges with reading as well.
And so it was just a wonderful way to kind of get get a different group of folks together that we can't get, and that likely would not have participated had we just been doing remote research right?
So it's actually like going to where people are, and that makes it a big difference, and we'll be going to La next week a yacht and I will be there next week, in la!
In a much more urban environment doing some research with folks there.
So I think. I don't know. I think it's all about building trust with the public, and we build trust with the public by giving them great experiences and positive experiences with our institutions, and that starts.
With the website. You know I was trained. I I remember reading Jenny Reddish, who who's been around a long time like 40 years in our field, and throughout the scrapebook letting go of the words and really talked about how a great website is a great conversation and so when somebody is coming to a website
They're starting to initiate a conversation with you, you know, in the case of a substance, abuse treatment website you know they're coming to get help.
And so we certainly want that to be a positive experience, and not have a door slammed in their face from the can't go, and it's really about.
What are those people experiencing when they first come? Are they overwhelmed because the language is full of jargon, and it's written at like a postgraduate level or is it accessible and friendly you know does it seem like it's for them and like they are included when
The services are, described for example, so I think there's just a lot of lot of thought that needs to go into how do we make things inclusive for everybody, and we can only figure that out by testing with lots of different types of people it's it's it's the hard part about the government
Yeah.
It it's we need to be sure. We're serving everybody, and that's very different than a private organization.
That's got a really clear audience
I'm gonna ask you another question, Melissa, but something that happened in our our research is that we sat next to people, and they brought up a prototype on their on their mobile phone and something that I I remember happening quite frequently with our with test you know the younger audience.
Is we had like something at the very top of the page, and they kept getting snapped chat messages, and like things that covered up a very important call to action.
Can you tell me a little bit more about some of those things that you see in person versus remote
Yeah, I am glad you brought this up. I think it is really important, because when we do testing in person we will often be testing on mobile devices.
And it's really interesting to see how people are holding devices in their hand, and how they might be able to move around on a prototype or a website with a physical device in their hand.
Often times, people also want to use their own device, which is great because then we're using devices that maybe have a cracked screen maybe aren't the latest model and and have more of a right and the types, of phones we're using then versus like the couple of phones that
I have to test on, and we get a sense of people's reactions in person that you can't.
It's really hard to see through zoom right? So we can see a slight like if somebody is jarred slightly, they will make a little a little kind of jarring face when they're looking at something or surprise, it's all sometimes easier to just see when you're literally sitting right next
To them, and they've gotten their their phone out and we're working through stuff.
So there's just these subtleties that I think make a big difference to being in person.
I also think honestly, it's easier to build trust.
Remote is great, because that's the way we reach a lot of people, and there's positives and negative to that.
And there's positive negatives in person, but something about sitting next to somebody and having them know you is a person and just trying to kind of build a rapport in the beginning.
Somehow, for me seems a little bit easier in person. Although I have.
We'll see that we've had some good experiences on the phone as well.
We're not even on video what I'm talking to people in interviews, and maybe there's something about the anonymity and and not being seen that also allows people to open up so we do try to just strive for different kinds of research because they all have pros and cons and
I would love to talk about trauma from design a little bit, Mathias, because we were trying to kind of take that approach, some with what we were doing in Fargo, and we'll do it next week to one of the things we're just trying to do is is recognize right.
Now we are doing research in an area that's sensitive.
We're talking about behavioral health, and we're talking about mental health so we're like, really.
We're from the get-go that we're going to be talking about sensitive areas.
So, you know we're very clear not to be surprising people about kind of what's coming up.
What's going to be asked, but we're also making sure that at the end, in case we end up bringing stuff up for folks.
So they want to follow up or get any kind of help.
They're getting resources and just like that's like a one-page handout that we're handing to them because this this research happens to be in person, encouraging them to use something like the 9 8 8 the suicide crisis hotline if necessary.
Or using the strong hearts help line if they are from tribal nations.
For example, where that that is a specific resource for that crowd, and just trying to be more ready from the get-go when we're doing research, with resources to care for our participants.
So they're not we're not caught off and you know, a few years ago I remember being participating in research, and it wasn't in particularly like it wasn't mental health or substance use.
It was actually on the child tax credit, and we were not prepared, and our conversation just started going, all over the place.
In these various interviews, and then at the end of the call, the other research and I would be like, Oh, God, Okay, this isn't good like we didn't have anything at the ready to offer anybody we weren't well, prepared ourselves.
For all the different topics that would come up. And so it it that was not good and and so we're trying to do it differently now, and having more care.
And I think that's about like being trauma formed in the process.
Realizing you very well, may accidentally Trigger, something in somebody.
Try not to use the word trigger. So tricky. I don't know what the word to say what the best word would be for that but, you too, might bring stuff up for folks and just being aware of that in our research and and being sure that we're keeping an eye on those signs of a trauma
Response. We're stopping the interview gently, if necessary, or the work gently, if necessary, and and providing resources in order for somebody to follow up and get like some extra support.
If they need it. After a conversation with us.
Yeah, like: user researchers often like prepare like their speaker guide and like their note guide.
And now it's like, how do we provide that guide for like, hey?
Something might come up and like, make that a common part of the toolkit that designers and researchers I add, I wanna give you an opportunity kind of just like any anything that Melissa said Spark any inspiration that you want to wanna share
I mean. I think I think that I think back to my social work training around like facilitating sessions, and working with a client.
You know whether you're doing cognitive behavioral therapy, or any type of you know different therapy modeities.
It's, you know you're in those sessions.
You are sort of like opening people up like you're you're sort of there.
You're cracking them open, and then you've got to.
You've got to put them back to together with care, just like a physician would if we were, you know, had to had to get a procedure or surgery, and so that that that last piece of the conversation really made me think about like you know giving people resources.
At the end is like closing, is just like trying to sort of like have some kind of closure to to the experience, and I I do think like what Melissa said earlier really resonated with me.
Around you know it is the customer experience that people have in navigating and interacting with government institutions, and far too often especially for for our vulnerable neighbors.
It has been really really rough for them to navigate those systems.
And so thinking through, how how do we build trust one step at a time?
And it, and it does start with just like focusing on what we're working on ahead of us and then have it, having you know rippling effects, little nudges make rippling effects.
I wasn't intending to to, you know. Bring it full circle right there.
But here I go. Pardon my cheesiness.
Yeah, one of the things when I was was teaching was sometimes the most important thing is just to show up consistently and bring yourself and and you don't always have a 100% days.
Sometimes you have 40% days, and if you hit, if you do the 40% day, that's the 100% that you could bring up, and and sometimes it's just like the consistency is the little thing yeah
I want to pick you back on that that's critical in research, too.
Yeah.
Right? So, yeah. We're talking about this issue of like creating creating public trust right?
There's a lack of trust in the government in general, and we can help.
You know the government is like this big amorphous word, and it means different different things to different people.
But when we got into research like, we're the government, you know where we're where we're in the face of the government, and that's right.
So, being very careful about like if I say I'm going to do something, being sure I do it, you know, making sure I'm like previewing people about like this is this is kind of what's coming.
Next. This is what you can expect and making sure. I actually do this follow-up.
So these are like these tiny interactions. You know. I may be sending them a text saying, Hey, your gift card is in the mail.
Keep an eye out for it, and just let me know if if you don't get it by next week and I'll track it down for you.
Okay. Have a great day. And then do these like really small interactions?
But I think they make a big difference, because I think they are showing these people from the Government, but they do care, and they're doing what they said they're gonna do.
So it has to do with like our own integrity, and and that those small efforts to build trust.
And I think it's the same on you know, digital projects, products as well. Right?
Like making sure we don't have broken links like a broken link is a broken promise.
You said I'm gonna send you here, and you didn't do it, you know, so like running our stuff through broken link checkers like just making sure like our stuff is tidy, and that we're doing what we say we're gonna do as much as possible.
I think really, I've got to hope that these small things make a difference in the long run
Thank you and I'm gonna I'm gonna pass it over to IoT for the next question, but like, how can we further advocate for these little mudges?
To just be a little bit more common part of the process, and again, it's like sometimes we're like we can't fix that until we get a big scope of work, and like we gotta give the big project plan but like: is what what can we do just to make all those like little
teeny interactions a part of the normal day to day
Yeah, I mean, I think I think whether we're talking about civic tech or any anything else.
It is. It's just a it is the relationships that really matter.
It's having really deep trusting relationships. And one of my former bosses used to tell me, hey?
You know we used to have these sort of like learning communities where we would bring together lots of folks from the community to talk through.
You know what the task at hand, and at the end of it you know it wha wasn't that I was necessarily doing like tangible things.
But I was just. I was talking to people I was. I was communicating kind of like hearing, lit, actively, listening at the end of it.
I was so so tired, and that is the relationship building.
That is the the trust that you know. When people see you coming up and showing up day in and day out, whether it's whether it's a good day or a bad day.
That is what really really matters. And so I think the way that we can further advocate for a little nudges is, and understanding that no matter where people are at in this process, that we call government, they do have a big role, to play in the end product and what a good outcome could look like and
so, whether they are in the contracts and grants, division procurement, you know, working on like the the program staff side or the direct service delivery.
All of those people have a big role to play, and any kind of product that we put out, and how folks will kind of understand our work and and move it forward.
So I do think at the start and end of every single day.
It really is the relationship building that that matters the most, and we know that you know, based on just historically, people don't have trust in healthcare systems either.
And it's it's racial it's it's sometimes ethnic, and it's, you know, rightfully so, too.
I mean there have been. There have been horrible things that have been done to to groups of people, and so handling those with care, and really really under trying to understand like where people are coming from, is I think the the most important thing
Also I'm gonna pass it over to you.
I think what's really jumping out for me from what I yeah, I was saying was, I think I heard you say the word care probably 10 times in the last just 20 min and I think like that's what it comes down.
To and I think it's it's extremely hard if you're stressed out to treat other people with good care.
It's just really hard. So it comes back to.
I I do think it does come back to like self care, and I think of care within teams right so like if if I'm kind of demonstrating and care back and forth with some of my colleagues, I do feel like I'm more likely than to be able to demonstrate that type of
care with people, and I'd be doing research with or government partners or other people who can outside my team.
I think when we get stressed. Just you know, not a surprise.
All kinds of things come out sideways, we could say, and and giving people the time and the care and that I care about you as a whole person.
And and that's what we like. Hope to do with our when we're researching with people, you know we'll be like.
Tell us about yourself like, and we do care like we would like to hear about the whole person.
Not just about like. What do you think of this product, you you know, and I think it's a little bit about the intention.
Can I behind whether it's an interaction with a work, colleague, or whatever it's like.
Am I intending to like be fully human, show up fully human as myself, and also let them do that as well.
And all of it's like messiness and beauty, right
Thank you, and there's a couple of pieces about like education and like care, and like building that team and and something that I'd like to like speak of, just like, how can we create those those opportunities and and and pathway just to like be vulnerable to say, that.
We we don't know the answer either, and like we might need to like like, learn a little bit more and like, who can we who can we lean on to to to to learn those things to like I'm not the expert at everything no one is but like if we can kind of like create that space to
be like I don't know who is the best person to ask.
I remember I I started in July, and a couple of the first couple of weeks I was here.
I think rob hosted from Ccs Q. Like they're having like a human center design training.
And I was like, oh, I'll like jump in, and and and just like spend some time with them, and like learn a little bit about.
And there was an amazing video about what an analogy of like.
Cms: with like a cat. Video and I I think about that very frequently.
It's just like having a little bit of fun, too, about how these not just happen is like I really really important part, because
Yeah, I was gonna say, I haven't seen that video.
I wanna see it?
I'll school system. Link. Oh, man! But again it's like the nudges don't have to be serious all the time, either.
They can they can be light, they can be, they can be whatever needs to happen to make those nudges more applicable.
We have about 20 min left that I know of this some time to like.
Do breakout rooms, but I want to kind of pass it over to the audience too, like if if you're if you're if you have something that you've worked on that you were like you're super passionate, about and and you know that it, like causes these ripples could you put
It in the chat you could also go off mute and talk about it.
We'd love to like hear a little bit more about the things that you you really find meaningful and impactful
Or if you just have questions for for any of us also.
Okay. Safe. Satisfy the cat. That is it. That's the video.
Thank you so much, Brian
I just get some feedback from a team that they're like.
Oh, that is a super clever way to like, do like a metaphor of the space.
So thank you so much for the, and it's like pretty cool production quality, too.
Thank you. Those are, Mike. Those are my feed lines.
Only one of them is still with us. But yeah.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear
But anyway, thank you so much for for spending some time and listening to us today we really appreciate it.
If you're interested a little bit more about the digital service at Cms.
We have a space on the Cms. Website you can reach out to any of us.
There's our email, and again, thank you all so much for being here, and I'll pass it over to our wonderful Ccs queue moderators